As we continue our study, let's remember the critical importance of Historical Empathy. In class we have been digging into the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther develops 95 Theses (arguments) that support formal separation from the Catholic church and in the process democratizes Christianity. Calvin disconnects from the church in similar fashion. In class, you took a stand on the question below...Let's continue the conversation here. The Reformation created bitter resentments that fester throughout the Modern era of World History. Let's use this space to think about the place of freedom in this conflict.
We defined hurt as when people disappoint you in the most astounding ways...it can take a while to recover, regain focus and carry on in the spirit of better days. Strength is getting back to you.
Who has more CAUSE to be hurt? The Protestants? Or the Catholic Church?
42 comments:
I feel as if the Catholic Church has more cause to be hurt. The Catholic Church did nothing to hurt the Protestants, but physically maybe. The hurt that the Protestants gave the Catholics was an emotional hurt because after all that the Catholic Church has been through together such as the Crusades, the Protestants decided to leave and betray the Catholic Church over silly indulgences.
The Protestant definitely have more reason to be hurt. Religion isn't about how much money you have or your political/social status. Religion is about believing in God and having faith. So selling pardons for sin is the complete opposite of religion. Once the Catholic Church starting selling these pardons they claimed it was a pass into heaven. They only wanted more money and as a result lying to their followers. So the Protestants left because they were hurt. Hurt because religion wasn't the same anymore. :(
I was not in class for the discussion but I do believe Bella has a better point over Stefano. Religion is not meant to be sold. I'm not a strong believer in the whole God thing but I believe it is really wrong to sell someone a pass to heaven. Religion is for the poor and the rich so how were the people who didn't have money supposed to get into heaven. The protestants had more of a right to be hurt.
Just like many others, I feel that the Catholic Church has more cause to be hurt. They did not hurt the Protestants. Just because of indulgences, the Protestants left the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has experienced a lot of things such as the Catholic Church and the Reformation.
I believe that the Protestants had more cause to be hurt than the Catholic Church. Around the Reformation, most people believed in Catholicism and the Catholic Church held an immense amount of power. It was going to take a while for the Protestants to gain the amount of support the Catholic Church had. Even today, in America at least, there are a lot more Catholic people than Protestants. Taking this into consideration, it's reasonable that the Protestant movement could have had more damage done to it than the Catholic Church.
I believe that the Catholic Church has the right to be hurt. They were losing members to the Protestants even though they were basically preaching the same thing without indulgences. Most of Martin Luther's 95 Theses to me was about the indulgences and not about the sermon that was actually being given.
I think that the Protestants had the advantage to walk freely right after Martin Luther was excommunicated. So, what hurt did the Protestants really have? Like Stefano said, the Catholic Church has been through so much together. For example, giving up lives for the Crusades. Now, because they want to do their own thing, the church has to suffer and blame them for a Church that has gone on forever.
I feel as though the Protestants were the ones that had more reason to be hurt. After realizing the flaws of the Catholic Church, the Protestants made an effort for the Catholic Church to consider for there to be a reformation. But instead, the Church denied and rejected the Protestants' ideas to reform. The Catholic Church seemed be clueless of how wrong it is to try to buy your way into heaven through indulgences. An indulgence is the remittance of the temporal consequences of sin. For example, it's like copying off of someone else's homework. For now, you will get credit for completing the homework but once the test comes, you won't have any idea of what the information is all about at all. They make it seem like an easy ticket to heaven. This idea of selling indulgences is not what religion is about at all. I believe that the Catholic Church should not have rejected the ideas of the Protestants for only trying to improve the ways of the Church.
In my opinion, the Catholic church has more of a right to be hurt. The Catholic church did not deserve the betrayal they recieved from the protestants, all because of indulgences. I agree with Stefano. The Catholic church has been through so much. For example, the reformation and the Crusdaes. Selling indulgences is what the people of Catholic church belived in.
Protestants may have been hurt also, but to get up and leave, is the wrong thing to do in my opinion. Even if they did not belive that getting "sold" into heaven is the wrong thing to do, the Catholics did not see anything wrong with this. This is why they were hurt a lot more then the protestants.
I believe that the Protestants had more cause to be hurt because we said that hurt is when people disappoint you in many astounding ways. The Protestants were the ones disappointed by the Catholic church's misconduct and lack of reverence for the what the bible says. Martin Luther in no way shape or form wanted to cause an uprising his preachment according to the ninety-five theses; was that "Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ is saying Repent ye etc., intended that the whole life of believers should be penitence".The Catholic church were the ones who persecuted the Protestants and would brutally kill them for turning certain people against the church.The church was trying to cover up their conniving deeds and remain relentless with the sailing of indulgences.
I believe that the Catholic Church had more cause to be hurt. I think this because as Stefano said, the Protestants betrayed the Catholics because of indulgences. If the Catholic Church believed in indulgences, then they did nothing wrong. They also did not hurt the Protestants in any way. It is the Protestants that hurt the Catholics by basically saying that what the Catholics believed in was wrong.
Also, the Protestants abandoned the Catholic Church. They betrayed them and the Catholic Church did not like this. This is why the Catholics have more cause to be hurt.
I personally believe the Catholic Church has more cause to be hurt. This is because the idea of the Reformation was brought on by Martin Luther and his followers. As Stefano had said, the Catholic Church did nothing to hurt the Protestants but on the contrary, the Protestants hurt the Catholics by reforming against them. Even though many of the rules and regulations, such as selling indulgences were wrong acts of the Church, they had done nothing to hurt their followers. They were both "astounded" and "disappointed" by the actions of the Protestants and that is exactly what being hurt means.
An example of this could be the "Ninety - Five Thesis" written by Luther himself. The theses both disagree and criticize the Church, which would hurt anyone who is on the receiving side of such a document. The Protestants were the ones who went against the Catholics and therefore were the ones who caused hurt onto the Catholics. In conclusion, the Catholic Church had much more of a reason to feel hurt. They were not the ones to develop the Reformation.
I believe the Protestants have more of a cause to be hurt. They have more of a cause to be hurt because the Catholicism affected them. They were once a part of the Catholic ways, until they realized what was actually happening. They were being sold indulgences just so the Catholic Church could make money. The indulgences were not going to get them a way into heaven, which they figured out afterwards.
"The Pope has no power to remit any guilt, except by declaring and warranting it to have been remitted by God; or at most by remitting cases reserved for himself; in which cases, if his power were to be despised, guilt would certainly remain" (theses 6). I believe that means that the selling of indulgences should stop because It will not grant the people a way into heaven and remove all of their sins. The selling of indulgences hurt them. Their own religion was scamming them. They did the right thing by starting their own group.
The Protestants definitely have more reason to be hurt. Religion isn't about how much money you have or your political/social status. Religion is about believing in God and having faith. So selling pardons for sin is the complete opposite of religion. Once the Catholic Church starting selling these pardons they claimed it was a pass into heaven. They only wanted more money and as a result lying to their followers. So the Protestants left because they were hurt. Hurt because religion wasn't the same anymore.
Number 6 on the "Ninety-Five Theses" by Martin Luther states "The Pope has no power to remit any guilt..." The Church is lying and betraying their followers. The Pope cannot relieve any guilt. The whole point of religion is believing that there is a God and that he can release you of your guilt.
As you can see, the Protestants had more reason to be hurt. The Church betrayed them, giving them fake passes for sins when they know only God can do that.
I feel as though the Catholic Church has more cause to be hurt. We saw the Catholic Church as one big community and to go against something so big is wrong. Yes I understand that the Catholic Church had flaws but without trying to compromise, the Protestants reformed against them. Martin Luther wrote the Ninety-Five thesis. He posted them on the door and after that his list of objections sparked widespread criticism of the Catholic Church and started the reformation. Luther was all for everyone being equal but as we see in his objections he is going against a group of believers. It think it is wrong to point flaws of anyone. " Christians should be exhorted to strive to follow Christ their head through pains, deaths, and hells." I think this line really gives Luther's opinion on what Christian should do rather than what they believe or want to do.
I think that the Protestants definitely have more of a reason to be hurt. As Mr. Jobs identified in class, “Hurt is when people disappoint you in the most astounding ways…”, so finding out that the religion you have been believing in and following has been ripping you off is definitely a reason to be hurt. I understand that the Catholics didn’t like how they were the first religion and then people started to branch off of it but they brought it upon themselves. The Catholics should not be hurt that the Protestants left them if they were the reason for it happening. The Church really hurt them. The Protestants had faith in the Church and what they were doing, but then to find out that you were not getting a way into heaven and/or having sins released, but rather having a greedy Church take your money for their advantages. I am not positive on who said this in class (I think Sunday or Andrew) but they said , “The concept of religion is belief, not buying”, and I completely agree. The selling of indulgences is not at all religious, it is malicious and political. Being lied to all along by the people that you would think were always there for you is a real cause to be hurt.
I believe the Protestant's had more reason to be hurt. I think this because the Protestants were like Zymir said, the ones disappointed by the Catholic church's misconduct and lack of reverence for the what the bible said. The Catholic Church acted unaware of how wrong it is to buy your way into heaven through indulgences. Religion isn't about the money, it's a way you live your life. and buy your way into heaven is cheating and very immoral. Also, it makes it unfair to those who don't have the money to buy the pardons.
In my opinion, the protestants were the ones that had a GOOD reason to be hurt. They were lied to and trusted the Church that was basically stealing from them. Religion shouldn't be about money. It should be about your beliefs and what you choose as an individual to take part in that group. Even though the Catholic Church was very popular, it doesn't give anyone the right to pay money to get out of their sins. God never said to make people pay for their sins. When you sin you go to confession and pray. God forgives you, money doesn't. All in all, I do believe that protestants had the right to be hurt and the Church just played it off like they did nothing wrong.
I believe that the Protestants have more reason to be hurt over the Catholic Church. The Protestants were not happy with the way the Catholic Church made money off of the people's belief in religion and therefore separated themselves from that. They had more reason to be hurt because even when Martin Luther nailed the 95 theses it the Church door, the Catholic Church didn't take his problems into their concern. The Protestants didn't believe that freedom from punishment for sin could be bought by an individual, but gained through prayer towards God, and they believed that selling indulgences was wrong. The Protestants believed that religion was not about money, but about a person's relationship with God and that's why I think that they had more cause to be hurt.
I think that the Protestants were hurt more. They were just trying to help the Catholics to be a better church with right principles. But, the Catholics just rejected what the Protestants say and so they separated. The Catholic church made the people pay indulgences to take away their sins which is not right. The Catholics shouldn't be hurt because they were the ones who took money out of other people and lying to the Protestants. Having religion is about your faith and not about politics and money. Indulgences is not the right way to earn your way into heaven. In theses 1, it says that "Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ is saying "repent ye," etc., intended that the whole life of believers should be penitance". I believe that they should repent to God instead of buying indulgences. So, in the end, I believe that the Protestants were hurt more.
I do think that the Protestants have an excellant reason to be hurt over the Catholic Church. The Protestants are not happy with what the Catholic Church was doing which may of caused some people to make their own type of Christian Religions such as when Martin Luther establishing the 95 thesis and Lutherism. The Protestants also believed that religion is not about the money, but about friendship with God and maybe where every man is equal. God never wanted people to pay for their sins because if you pray, then God will forgive you because money won't solve anything now. This is why I think the Protestants feel hurt by the Catholic Church.
"Hurt is when people disappoint you in the most astounding ways. It can take a while to recover, regain focus, and carry on in the spirit of better days. Strength is getting back to you." Based on that definition of hurt, I believe the Protestants had more cause to be hurt. The whole Reformation started for several reasons regarding the Catholic Church's actions. The Church was beginning to become immoral. For example, they had become less religious, and instead, more secular which caused them to become corrupted and greedy. Many monks and priests defied the rules and pursued worldly affairs instead of spiritual duties. They had broken their vows by drinking, marrying, and gambling. The Church was transforming from religious to secular. That is why people started to branch off and reform against the church. They had higher expectations of the church. One of the main reasons why the Protestants protested was the practice of selling indulgences. Martin Luther, a Protestant leader, completely detested against this practice. He explains in his theses 6, 21, and 32, that the Pope clearly had no power to cancel any punishments for sins by selling the indulgences. They were just trying to make some money. The church had become so corrupted; they used the ideas of sinning as an advantage to create these indulgences to sell to make a profit. The Pope was basically playing God, for God only has the power to judge. That is a sin itself. Not only did the Pope and Church leaders betray God, but they disappointed the people as well. I can see why the people couldn't have forgiven the Church for their actions. In conclusion, The Protestants definitely had more of a cause to be hurt. Because of the Church's greedy and selfish actions, the Protestants had become so filled with disappointment. The Church was expected to be holy and religious, but instead, it had become secular and sinful. It is entirely the Church's actions and fault which caused the people to branch off and lose trust in the Church.
I think the Protestants had more cause to be hurt than the Catholics because most of the Catholics were starting to get confused about their faith. The Catholics couldn’t figure out how the priests were selling indulgences to the people to get to heaven faster. That was the way the Catholics got more money. So most of the Catholics became Protestant over what happened in the church. Protestants only just wanted to be connected to their faith with god but the Catholic priests, bishops, and the pope took advantage of their faith for money. So that is why Protestants became more hurt then Catholics.
I think the Catholics has more cause to be hurt. As I said in class during this period in time the church was supported by loyalist. People who would be loyal to the church and loyal to god. Regardless, of how the church members informed the laws they still expected their people to be loyal to them. And during this time you'd have to be in touch with the church in order to be "important" in any job and career. And just like mentioned in 301 during World History the church back then was like mobsters in 1960. They aren't to be played with because there will be great consequences. I know thats not how it's supposed to be but that's how they kept things in order.
Even if the protestant were lied to and made money out of, they're able to branch into a whole new religion and progress from there. The catholic never stopped them from becoming a new religion, believing and practicing what they want. The protestants were not hurt in anyway, not having a bad image at least. Still catholic today is still criticized in their own way. People who still want to be Catholic, is crushed. As a catholic they see that it is just a joke. Yes the Church literally betrayed even Jesus, but the protestant progress. Due to this part of history, the catholic church can't progress much from there. It all goes down hill. The catholic churches aren't taken seriously anymore, in certain ways. The church probably didn't care, but the people did. From the moment Luther land his hand on the door, you know things are to happen, ....not at all moral.. Luther didn't actually do anything, he just took his time and biasedly proclaim what he believe, and no one stopped him. What the church did was morally wrong according to the bible, which Martin Luther took his time to read... It all worked out in the end for protestants...i suppose a little for Catholic Churches too..if they were still selling indulgences.
I believe the Protestant are the ones that should be more hurt. They had to leave their church and distance themselves from their religion because people were making money off of sins. Protestants were the ones who had to stand up for what was right and start over, because greedy people with guilt wanted to go to heaven.
The Protestants have a reason to feel betrayed. The Catholic Church broke the trust that the Protestants had in it. How we defined hurt in class describes the Protestants feelings perfectly in my opinion. The church turned 'religon' into a greedy, worldy idea, when it should've been about trust, comfort, and hope. I think that if the Catholic Church hadn't became greedy, the Protestants wouldn't have broken away at the time.
I believe that the Protestants had a much bigger reason to be hurt than the Catholic Church. All the Protestants were trying to do was help out and make the Catholic Church better, but the Catholics didn’t listen to anything the Protestants had to say. The Catholic Church made people buy indulgence so their sins could be washed away and you could go into heaven. I don’t think it is right to have political stuff, like raising money for the government, brought into religion. I think people should just ask God for forgiveness for their sins not have to pay money to get to heaven. The Protestants just wanted to worship God, money free, but the Catholics just used them for money. So that is why the Protestants got hurt more.
i believe that the Catholic Church has more cause to be hurt. they were betrayed by the Protestants. what if your friends abandoned you and started another group without you? you would probably be pretty hurt. and you can blame it on the pardons all you want but it doesn't mean that the Catholic church wont be hurt. the Catholic church created a religion that the Protestants should have been lucky to be apart of but instead you abandoned it. therefor, the catholic church has a right to be hurt.
I believe that the Protestant has more cause to be hurt.I agree with Brian that people should just ask God for forgiveness for their sins not have to pay money to get to heaven.Pay indulgences to take away their sins which is wrong. Religion shouldn't be about money.Religion is the way of our true connection with God.
I believe the protestants have more cause. As said in class, hurt is when people disappoint you in the most astounding ways... it can take a while to recover, regain focus and carry on in the spirit of better days... strength is getting back to you. The Catholics thought it was ok to buy indulgences under the influence of the pope who was selling them. Indulgences were basically a ticket way into heaven without serving the punishment for your sin. How can you consider yourself a true Catholics? "The Pope has no power to remit any guilt, except by declaring and warranting it to have been remitted by God; or at most by remitting cases reserved for himself; in which cases, if his power were to be despised, guilt would certainly remain" (theses 6). I think this quote means that at the end of the day the true judgment is up to God and buying indulgences does not take the guilt of your sins away. The protestants had a right to leave the church because they realized all the bad that the Catholic church was doing. yes, all of this did start by Martin Luther but he didn't plan for things to be taken to the extreme. He was just trying to get some points across but the Catholic church didn't want to listen to what he had to say. The sad part is the pope was just using the Catholics for money to build a basilica instead of using his own money. The protestants also have more right to be hurt because they were criticized and persecuted for stating what they believed in.
I think that The Protestants have more cause to be hurt rather than the Catholic Church. I think this because Religion has nothing to do with politics or the amount of money you have. Religion is about your devotion to God. The Catholic Church started selling pardons, which was extremely wrong since money has absolutely nothing to do with religion. You shouldn't have to pay your way into Heaven, so the Catholic Church was very wrong. They only wanted more money. So, The Protestants left the Catholic Church since religion wasn't the same as it used to be. Therefore, The Protestants have more cause to be hurt rather than the Catholic Church.
I believe that the protestants were more hurt. I think this because they pretty much had to change they're religion. Religion shouldn't be about money, and the Catholics were making people pay in order to get into heaven. Religion should be about a relationship with God, but the Catholics kinda tried to change that.
In my opinion, I believe that the Protestants have more cause to be hurt. I don't think that religion should be about bribery and money. Religion is a belief and basically your own relationship with the lord. Therefore this is a serious matter for a lot people. The Catholics basically bribed people and forced people to pay as a ticket into heaven. I just don't feel that religion is about money and I think this is why the Protestants have more cause to be hurt.
The protestant have more reasons to be hurt. In the ninety five theses it states many facts that they are more hurt than the Catholic Church. Number 84. states "again why does not the Pope, whose riches are at this day more ample than those of the wealthiest of the wealthy, build the one Basilica of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with that of poor believers? Martin Luther is saying that they're basing there book off of money trying to make the rich people happy but what about the poor people don't they have a say? Another example is number six "The Pope has no power to remit any guilt except by declaring and warranting it to have been remitted by god, or at most by remitting cases reserved for himself,in which cases, if his power were to be despised, guilt would certainly remain. The Pope can't forgive your sins only God can and if the Pope forgive your sins you will always feel guilty. Overall the Protestant are hurt because its like there mocking the power of what God can do by trying to make there own rules, or trying to make the Pope like god. The pope will never be god to the Protestants.
I understand why both the Protestants and Catholics have causes to be hurt, but I think the Protestants have more cause. Obviously before the Protestants even became Protestants, they were Catholics. And for many years before people began to realize their own "perspectives" they were faithful to the Catholic church. But after being influenced by those people with different perspectives like Calvin and Martin Luther, their whole world of religion changed. Like many of my fellow classmates mentioned, the Catholic church sold indulgences to take advantage of the people to get money. It supposedly "remit" them from sin. I believe they were confused on who to believe, but the more people began talking against the Catholic church, the more they became Protestants.
I believe that the Protestants had more of a reason to be hurt. I agree with what Mimi said. You shouldn't have to pay your way into heaven. They weren't teaching the real meaning of religion. To me their teachings were just all wrong period. And because of this the Catholics started to change their religion.
I believe that Protestants have more cause to be hurt than the Catholics. The selling of indulgences that was going on messed up everyone that wanted a true faith. All of these different Protestant religions such as Lutheranism started popping up because the poor couldn't afford to be free from sin.
The Catholics are too worried about money and rank then about the faith and hope that they are supposed to deliver. The Protestant religion in my mind, were abandoned by the Catholic Church, their original religion, and were forced to make things right on their own.
Hurt is defined by "when people disappoint in the most astounding ways... it can take you a while to recover, regain focus and carry on in the spirit of better days. Strength is getting back to you". I think when the Protestant Reformation happened both parties, the Protestants and the Catholics, were hurt by what happened.
But for who had the right to be hurt, I think the Protestants did. The Catholic Church started selling indulgences just to get money, even when in Martin's theses he talks about how the Catholic Church is very wealthy. They were being morally wrong, which goes against everything that the Church stands for. I agree with Taylor when she said it was like their own religion was scamming them. I don't think the Catholic Church has the right to be hurt. They caused it themselves, the Protestants wouldn't have even started if there weren't things in the church that needed to be reformed.
The Catholics should have been hurt during this time period. The Church's indulgences were not fair, people should face punishment for sin, so they should not have excommunicated Martin Luther and his 95 theses What if you couldn't afford them? If was good that it had the Reformation.
I believe that the Catholics' have more cause to be hurt because they were "there first". It is known as a fact that the Catholic faith was the first religious group in the English parts, and it was the first religion that was on the way to being a World Religion. I believe that they have more of a cause to be hurt because out of nowhere, there were people who wanted to be separate from them and felt that they had to make a whole new religion (Lutheran, Protestant and Anabaptist). I felt that the Catholic Church was a family, and now that the individuals that made these different religions are leaving the Catholic 'family', I feel that the Catholics have all the rite to be hurt about that. This is what I have to say about that.
P.S. sorry for the lateness.
I brlirve the protastents had fr more reason to be hurt. marten luther relised tht the curch had become currupt and was strayong away from what the bible said. in his attempt to make the catholic church see what they where doing was not what God said to do, he was banished. as the protastents where forming, they catholic church had very high resentment, slight violence, and anger towerds the protistant church, a people who where only trying to helo them fix there mistake.
I brlirve the protastents had fr more reason to be hurt. marten luther relised tht the curch had become currupt and was strayong away from what the bible said. in his attempt to make the catholic church see what they where doing was not what God said to do, he was banished. as the protastents where forming, they catholic church had very high resentment, slight violence, and anger towerds the protistant church, a people who where only trying to helo them fix there mistake.
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